117 – Festive Special: Giving

[00:00:00] Lily: Hello, and welcome to the IDEMS podcast. I’m Lily Clements, a data scientist, and I’m here with David Stern, a founding director of IDEMS. Hi, David. 

[00:00:13] David: Hi, Lily. It’s that festive time of year again. 

[00:00:16] Lily: Absolutely. And I thought that today we could talk about giving. Given that we’re in the holiday season, and this is our kind of Holiday special podcast.

[00:00:25] David: Exactly. It’s the festive time of year. It’s a time to be grateful for what we have. It’s a time to share with others. And naturally as part of that charitable giving is something which people do and which is appreciated and it’s an important part of our societies. 

[00:00:41] Lily: Absolutely. And I was wondering then, that makes me think of things like songs that come out. The Band Aid song, today Known as Christmas, came out in 1984, so it’s on its 40th anniversary this year. And in a way, listening to that song, there’s charitable givings that you do, which you’re not necessarily buying into, you’re not necessarily going out and buying a gift or giving a donation you’re just streaming a song.

[00:01:03] David: Absolutely. And this is something where that particular instance was complicated from day one. There are elements where this is absolutely wonderful to be applauded. It was a triumph in terms of marketing, in terms of raising money for groups who would otherwise not have had that level of finances or access to that sort of finance, and it also had a darker side to it.

It had a negative perception which it created, a negative stereotype which it portrayed. It’s had all sorts of controversies over the years about the fact that this is also creating specific ways of using charitable feelings, and thoughts, and directing them, but in a way which is maybe not what’s most needed or what’s most appropriate. It’s complex. 

[00:02:09] Lily: Interesting. So I know that more nowadays there’s controversy over the lyrics that people point out, and I suppose when it was released in 1984, I’m not sure how controversial those lyrics were, that was before I was born. 

[00:02:22] David: But even then there were some of the particularly Ethiopian partners involved who were recognising that, for example, the Christianity, which is very prominent in Ethiopia, actually, has a different calendar. It’s an older Christianity, it’s a very established religion in different ways. And so the nature of the lyrics right from day one were in contradiction in some sense with local culture, with local elements, which were problematic from day one. But the need at that point in time probably outweighed the harm.

And so this balance between the positive side of the aid, the relief that came in that was needed at that time, versus some of the negative stereotypes, some of the misinformation if you want, which is created and transmitted widely through that song. Probably the balance is positive, but it’s always tough, and always recognising that there is always a balance. 

[00:03:33] Lily: It’s a very interesting point, cause I know that Zach who’s been on a podcast before and he’s the director of INNODEMS, our kind of partner in Kenya. And so Zach is Kenyan, not Ethiopian. But, we were once at a conference and there was an image that came up and he was like, I love this, I love this image. And the image was a picture of Africa with arrows going out showing what Africa can give to the world. Cause he said, usually you see it in reverse. You see those arrows coming in. 

And that really struck me because that’s not something that’s obviously occurred to me as much being someone that’s lived in the UK my whole life. And it makes me wonder, was it stuff like, 1984 when this song came out, stuff like that, that have triggered this perception? 

[00:04:16] David: It goes back a long time, and it does depend who, where, but there are many people across different African cultures, because there’s such a diversity within Africa.

[00:04:28] Lily: Of course, yeah, sorry, and I don’t mean to compare Ethiopia to Kenya by any means. 

[00:04:32] David: It’s interesting, I don’t know two neighbouring countries which are so different from one another, I think, anywhere else. They are wonderful, I love both of them, but they are so different as neighbours in so many respects. And yet they have some commonalities, they have some shared experiences, they have shared realities, as well as their differences.

And so that diversity of culture across the continent, one of the things which is pretty universal is that there is a sense of pride which is growing and has been there for a long time in certain parts of Africa, but is growing more widely recently, in recognising the value of culture and traditions which are coming out of Africa, rather than looking outside for things to come in.

And as you said, this is something where Pan-Africanism is a term which has been around for a long time and that idea of learning across the continent. One of the things I feel very privileged is that, actually, I’m an outsider to the continent, but I’ve grown up in West Africa. I’ve lived in Kenya. I’ve worked in half [of all] African nations, at least for a week in each of them, giving a workshop or something. 

And if I compare that to my African colleagues, they often don’t have those opportunities for the Pan African experience. Most of their opportunities, tend to be related to where they are. It is actually quite rare and quite expensive for someone from East Africa to go and explore West Africa. Actually travelling within Africa is extremely expensive. It’s more expensive sometimes to go from, let’s say, Kenya to Malawi, than it is to go to Europe. It’s crazy. 

[00:06:34] Lily: At the risk of getting sidetracked, when I was in Ghana, there was Moustapha from Niger, who was over, and they’re pretty close to each other, those two countries. It was easier for me to get home from Ghana to the UK than it was for him because he had to go from Ghana to Ethiopia to Niger. So you have to go across. 

[00:06:55] David: Let’s just put this in perspective. Ghana is on the coast. It has Benin and Togo before you get to Nigeria. Straight north of Nigeria is Niger. Just next to Niger is Burkina Faso, which is just north of Ghana. They’re not small nations, but within African context, these are close. These are neighbours. And yet, the transport links between them, he had to fly to East Africa, that’s like going to Europe from Ghana, that sort of order of magnitude, and back to get to Niger because of the transport links.

Actually, I think right now, there was a reason that it was through Ethiopia then, and right now I think he could go through Burkina. It is tricky. 

[00:07:45] Lily: Yeah. 

[00:07:45] David: And it’s so difficult because you want those close ties. You want that sort of collaboration to be fostered locally, and across the continent. And we actually do quite a lot of work where we bring together people from East and West Africa in particular. And it’s so valuable because they come with such different perspectives, such different cultures, such different heritage. And yet quite a lot of their problems are more similar than with people outside the continent. And so that value of the difference and the same, is really so beautiful to see. 

We have got distracted a little bit from our core, but this is good. This is the nature of our episodes and it’s a Christmas episode. So we shouldn’t be different. We should be allowed to go off on a tangent.

[00:08:33] Lily: I was going to say, to tie back in, you’re explaining that there’s this huge diversity across Africa. I mean, very often people say Africa as if it’s a country as well. They use it synonymously with a country, but there is this huge diversity, but yet in this kind of song that we were discussing, the way that the lyrics are groups it as if what’s happened, or what was happening in 1984 in Ethiopia was… 

[00:08:57] David: Representative of the continent. Most African countries right now will never have experienced anything like that. It is a small minority. Now, don’t get me wrong, it is really important to support and to try and resolve these crises when they occur, wherever they occur in the world. But it is something where there has been an element of creating this image which has done harm as well as good to the region and the continent. 

And that’s something which many of our colleagues on the ground are battling. They represent a very different image of the continent. And then when they come out and they’re actually bringing ideas out, they’ve got innovation, which is happening locally, which they want to be respected internationally, sometimes they run up against these issues where people expect them to not have something to contribute, and to just be asking. 

That’s challenging, and there’s no easy answers to this, because it’s true that if you look at the global economy, you look at many elements of the data coming out and feeding the world wide web, the internet, Africa isn’t represented as one would want it. It hasn’t been. So there is a need to be able to increase that voice in ways. But some ways of increasing the voice now can do more harm than good. So how do we change that? And I don’t have the answers. 

[00:10:38] Lily: No. And things like these songs or giving, I mean, I guess one, kind of important point I’m picking up from you here is that we’ve been speaking about giving and kind of festive giving and it’s this time of year for giving and things like the band aid song is about us giving to them but actually you’re saying that they can give a lot back. 

[00:11:00] David: Absolutely. This is where one of the comments which has been around for a while, which I like, is that Africa needs trade, not aid. It’s a really interesting concept. And it’s one which is very central to how we work. But we are not an organisation that is set up to give to Africa. We’re an organisation which is set up to create opportunities for our African counterparts to work in skilled tasks, to actually help them to be ready to be able to do those tasks and to then deliver on them and create the opportunities and so on by building them into the work that we do, which is highly skilled.

And so if we look at just a very simple question of if you want to get skilled labour, in 20, 50 years time and you’re not considering Africa as the source for that skilled labour, you’re missing out on the youngest continent. You’re missing out on the continent which will have the most vibrant youth.

If that youth can have the right skills, then they can be contributing to the global economy. Everyone wins. They’re contributing, they’re getting work, they’re getting opportunities. If you think about it from a skilled labour perspective, you know, this is the dream for me in many ways, is for Africa to become really that hub of skilled labour for the century.

If we’re looking 20, 50 years in the future, the skilled labour of the future may really be coming out of Africa because it’s still where we have the highest birth rates now. And so you have the youth of tomorrow there, and if they get the right skills, this is the skills which are going to drive the world’s economy in interesting ways.

I want to come back to the giving because saying we should be doing trade not aid says you shouldn’t be giving. No it’s not correct and I want to put this into a slightly wider perspective that giving in general is something which if it’s part of our habits and part of what we do can be extremely beneficial for society, but also for ourselves. It’s something which if you are trying to hold on to everything you have, research shows that you’re not as happy as those who do give, you actually gain, which is good for your well being. 

But doing so in ways which are thoughtful and which recognise complexity you may not have time to do more than set up a standing order once a month. But be aware, follow the news on the different sort of organisations. There’s been plenty of sort of movement which has happened in terms of how you can give. 

And what I think is so important here is that this is something where there’s real questions about the value of giving locally versus globally and the importance of both. And I’m not wanting to come out one way or the other, but I do believe that in complex systems, if all you do is give locally, then potentially this is where we see the problems of elsewhere coming in to affect what happens locally. 

One of the classic examples is the issues of migration. If you compare Europe as somewhere where you give locally so that the standard of living in Europe becomes extremely high as compared to all its neighbours, then you’re going to create migration problems. If you give globally, but you don’t give locally, then you’re assuming that others can use the money which you’re giving to solve problems without learning to solve problems on your doorstep. And so that doesn’t work either. 

And so this balance between thinking globally, thinking locally, this is hard, and this is subtle, but I’d argue this is the way to actually recognise the complexity in the world, recognise that you can do things, you can affect your local environment for the better. And if you can understand how to give in such a way that your local environment gets better and improves, then maybe you can effectively as well think about how you can give globally. And so you’re also enabling the vast inequality which exists within the world to be sort of diminished. 

We know there is evidence that the biggest, if you want, driver of a lot of social issues is inequality. And so actually thinking about that in terms of local inequality, global inequality, and thinking about what your little bit, your contribution can do to be able to make things better locally and understand that and make things better globally, and which maybe you can have less visibility on. Maybe you don’t have the time for that. 

But that thinking about local and global, that’s what we need in the world. We need people who are thinking about their local community and also members of the global world and thinking about how the global world can become, I don’t even have the right word for it, but I think how your little contribution can reduce inequalities in the global world, because that is a really important factor. 

[00:16:33] Lily: And so, in the spirit of Christmas and this year what can we do this Christmas in terms of giving to think on giving locally and giving globally. So I suppose support local maybe buy things locally, and then how can we do things globally as well? 

[00:16:52] David: So maybe if you’re thinking about supporting local, you could also be thinking about what local initiatives are happening, which are trying to improve the quality of life in your local environment. That’s something which you could look at and you could try and support. Supporting those local initiatives which are trying to help your local community to function better as a local community, those are wonderful things to support. 

But also don’t forget that there are people who are living in very different contexts. And so thinking as well, you know, how can you engage in some way beyond your local community? And this could be that you don’t have time for much else, but you have a trusted organisation or a UN organisation, which may not be the best way, but it’s a way which you can trust to be able to contribute to something global. 

It might be that there’s other things that you trust. It might be that you have an individual who you know, who is actually going out and doing something for themselves. They’re working locally, internationally. And so you could try, you could support that. There’s all sorts of ways where what I guess I’m saying is that I don’t have an answer for what individuals should do. But what I do have an answer for is if you find yourself only thinking locally, maybe consider looking for something beyond your local. 

And if you find yourself always thinking beyond or outside or just supporting things which are outside, maybe look within, look closer to home to see, are there things you could support where you could see the impact, you could actually understand the complexities of it.

I guess, the key thing is, the giving, as somebody who is in a privileged position to be able to give that giving is good for you as well. And so being able to be part of something bigger is good, and to be able to see the impacts of your efforts it’s good as well. 

So balance and think about the different ways in which you can be in this privileged position of being able to give something, however small it may be, and receive the benefits of that through the time you’re spending thinking about something beyond, something bigger, or seeing the fruits of what you’re giving actually come to reality.

[00:19:17] Lily: Very nice. And I think that’s a really perfect way to end the podcast, unless there’s anything else that you wish to add. 

[00:19:24] David: No, just I hope people have a wonderful festive season. It’s been a pleasure to do this episode with you. Thank you, Lily. 

[00:19:32] Lily: Thank you very much.